1. Notoh

    Notoh Well-Known Member

    Celestial OFFICER
    Me and @Xx_Zaluke_xX have been talking and we have found a major issue with the proposed AK cost.

    TLDR: The AK Cost nerf means that given the already existing economic advantage for the T side, along with the new update making this advantage even more significant, the CTs will more than likely have significant issues affording rifles in the first few gun rounds.

    This post uses a lot of math to prove how the competitive environment will be affected, notably the game becoming significantly more T sided.

    As most of you know, the AK cost is being raised from $2700 to $2900. On paper this seems like a good change, but it has major issues for the underlying economic game between CTs and Ts.

    First of all, let's calculate the recommended buy between CTs and Ts on the current patch, assuming they are an AK player.

    Rifle + Full Armor + One smoke/nade for strat
    = $4000

    Rifle + full armor + kit + one smoke/nade for strat

    This isn't much, and it is more than made up for by the concept of defenders advantage on maps.
    On the new patch, obviously both players money will be changed equally (+200), but this change is not as equal as it seems.

    It all relies on how each team earns money.
    In CvC the following are ways to earn money:
    Winning a round - $3250
    Losing a round (varies on amount of losses you have previously sustained) - $2000 + 5(rounds lost)
    Killing somebody (varies on weapon) - between $300 and $900
    Achieving an objective - $300
    Losing bomb plant - $800 FOR ALL TEAM MEMBERS

    If you notice, one of these options is not only exclusive to Ts, but actually is $800 for all members + another 300 for the planter. Forcing bomb plants is a viable strategy, and it is well known and will seem obvious to most people. We can also include the likelihood of getting 1-2 kills in a round, increasing the likelihood of the Ts if they lose the pistol round gaining $14900 (5(2000)+5(800)+300+600) total, or more if they get more than 2 kills (which is highly likely). The CTs on the other hand, despite WINNING THE ROUND gain 18050 (5(3250) + 1500 + 300), assuming they kill all the enemy. If we were to flip the round win to the Ts versus the CTs, it would be 18050 to 10600. This already shows how with the already amount of money, Ts will nearly always have an economic advantage over the CTs. The only reason that CvC has elements of CT sidedness is due to the inherent nature of defenders advantage, making it relatively balanced (if not slightly T sided). That's a difference between 600 dollar advantage/player and 1600 dollar advantage/player.

    So why does the AK change make this even more biased?

    Well, most players spend to $150 in the pistol (helmet + nade).
    If the Ts get a bomb plant and 2 kills (an incredibly common occurrence) in the pistol round, the 2 people who got kills will have $3250, the rest having $2950 (the bomb planter will either have $3250 or $3550 depending on if they were the one who got the kill). The CTs on the other hand, will have between $3400 and $4100 (0-2 kills, 3ks or more are too rare to factor into this right now). If they stayed alive, they have the added value of the $350 helmet. This already is not much, with the Ts potentially even having players with more money than certain CT members depending on circumstances.
    Now, for a player as a T to buy in the next round if they lose, will want to have at least $950 to partial buy next round (2500 for loss gives you 3450, enough to buy m4 helmet or AK helmet nade), or $1500 to full buy. This means given their loss with bomb plant and minimum 2950, they can get an SMG and helmet (dropping to 900, which is close enough that a single 600 kill or bomb plant makes up for this gap in a large way), a very very decent buy, especially given the fact that they are the attackers. The attackers already choose the engagements and positions they want to take, having inherent map control over CTs.
    Those SMGs also give $600 for kill, so thats even more economic advantage that they gain just for doing the smart choice (versus CTs to adequately defend want to have the $300 kill reward guns, which means they get less for killing too!). Oh yeah? And if the Ts win that round, that's $3000 of SMG money alone, we aren't even factoring in the other math.
    This means that in the current situation already:

    The Ts need less stuff to execute
    They have a significantly easier method of earning money
    It is viable for them to have a decent buy and still buy the next round.
    and have inherent economic advantage in this way

    Now, the major issue here is the fact that with these decent buys over and over again, the Ts can put CONSISTENT economic pressure every single round versus the CTs. You die? Thats $4000 of equipment down the drain right there, even worse given the fact that their money earning is way worse. Even 1-2 kills per round mean that the CTs are forced to make unfavorable choices needing to have to choose between valuable utility and their preferred weapons.

    This all is fine in my opinion, it is one of the ways the Ts can win and utilize well, and provides a significant layer of depth. Now, our main issue comes with all that is updated.

    Kits are more essential than ever. Before, the kits cut down maybe 2-3 seconds of difference, now they cut down 5. I love the kit change, I think it is absolutely necessary, but this is important to consider.

    Even nades are much more valuable, with smokes becoming thicker I think they will have a dominant place in playstyles for CTs holding, meaning more utility the CTs need, also new flash is actually good now so like yeah.

    9 rounds vs 7 means that economic damage is significantly longer lasting, and the Ts have more time to play out the damage they do over time.

    The AK cost nerf is the big one. $200 for both teams is not a big difference on paper, but this effects the CTs more. The Ts earn money significantly easier, and need less essential utility.

    Already, the Ts can put consistent economic pressure on your team. If you die, thats thousands of dollars you have to rebuy, and if the Ts die, they need to rebuy significantly less (over the course of a game, $400 per round is a lot) and have more money in the first place. Now, your affordable gun option is $200 more expensive. What is $200? An important smoke, flash, or kit that your CT team doesn't have to defend. What is $200 to a T? A non-essential flash that would be nice but you don't really care much, you have more money anyway.
    The AK cost on its own would be fine, but SMG/sniper for CTs will become extremely important, as now rifling is only feasible for your extremely high fraggers who get so many kills their money is never a concern. Your team must make major sacrifices.

    Ts already have the economic advantage, adding more stuff the CTs need to buy, along with making their economic option more expensive is not good. The Ts can afford it with no problem, the CTs just can't.

    JUST BEING CLEAR I LOVE THE UPDATE, but the AK cost change is the only thing I disagree with.

    thanks to zal btw
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
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  2. tldr please
  3. read
    x d
  4. doesnt
    x d
  5. Notoh

    Notoh Well-Known Member

    Celestial OFFICER
    The AK Cost nerf means that given the already existing economic advantage for the T side, along with the new update making this advantage even more significant, the CTs will more than likely have significant issues affording rifles in the first few gun rounds.
  6. interesting, potential fix? or have you not thought that far ahead
  7. Notoh

    Notoh Well-Known Member

    Celestial OFFICER
    not making the AK 2900 or nerfing T side bomb plant money
  8. so following that notion do you think that the gap between the ak and m4 in terms of economic cost is okay and should stay as it is?
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  9. Notoh

    Notoh Well-Known Member

    Celestial OFFICER
    The issue isn't the gap, I think M4 should go to 2900 and AK stay 2700, the issue is how more money for AK means that CTs given their now essentially NECESSARY kits/nades and the inherent economic advantage that the Ts have, just won't be able to viably sustain themselves round after round.
  10. I think saying body armor is necessary is a bit of a stretch.
  11. Notoh

    Notoh Well-Known Member

    Celestial OFFICER
    I said recommended buy, not necessary.
  12. I don't really see the issue with these calculations. You can have 2 players kit no armor and rest body armor and still have super good buys... Anyways most people just forcebuy every round so I reallly don't think this recommended buy is common whatsoever as is
  13. are you implying that the term "eco" exists?
  14. The other major factor is the more likely outcome of the 2nd round being an MP5 round. People already have claimed they dislike the MP5 round in overtime. why would they want another one added to the game?

    Side note: I personally find the MP5 to be a very entertaining gun to use.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. 1. You don't insanely need a smoke and a nade, yea they help but they are a need. So you can starch 600$ or even 300$ on those. Especially on anti-eco rounds which you talk about

    2. The things bolded imo are pretty important, for the first bolded stuff those are the total money each team can theoretically receive, they aren't split evenly and really don't matter. If you get 3400$ it means you didn't get any kills, and the bomb wasn't planted, so the Ts would only be able to receive a max of 3,800$ if one T player gets 4 kills however that is most likely not going to happen and the average is going to be around 2,200$ if the Ts didn't plant, they won't have enough to adequately buy against the CTs and get any guns and if you do its a lucky pistol or bad aim for the enemy. Like your stat that you show is completely different than the other bolded this because that includes the bomb plant when your CT range doesn't.

    3. A lot of you arguments assume the Ts get the bomb plant but when the CTs have significantly better weapons thats not always the case.

    4. What? The only thing you could get is a flash with 200$ and it might not even be good once the update rolls out... Like you put so much emphasis on nades when they are the most essential thing.
  16. Notoh

    Notoh Well-Known Member

    Celestial OFFICER
    1. not need, recommended especially because after buffs the CTs will find great use from them. The Ts need them considerably less, even now, so it is yet another economic advantage over the CTs.

    2. thats the point, the Ts have this incredibly viable and common option of making money to sustain economic pressure. They won't always get it, but bomb plants are extremely common given the fact that a team of 5 will almost always take a site defended by 2 people, its just a question of how many losses they sustain.

    3. they don't assume that, they're saying that with bomb plant money the Ts simply win the economic battle against CTs.

    4. What I was trying to say was that $200 is significant, it could be the difference between something important or not, and given the economic leverage of the Ts, it could make the CT side very difficult.
  17. Notoh

    Notoh Well-Known Member

    Celestial OFFICER
    what I'm saying is that over the course of the game, the consistent economic damage that Ts are put into the position to do, the CTs will simply have great issues affording important items, especially given the added longevity.
  18. You did not address that the stats are entirely biased because you say the minimum a T can get is 2,900 with bomb plant but the minimum a CT can get when winning is 3,400 and you don’t mention that’s without the bomb plant. So when the CT gets 3,400 the T gets like 2,200 so it evens out.
    But no it most of the times won’t, only if it’s the difference of getting an AK/M4 and head armor 200$ isn’t going to be effecting you a lot.

    They still get less money... so they don’t win an economic battle if the CTs win, definitely if the CTs lose but not if they win
  19. Fooey

    Fooey Well-Known Member

    TheTrueAvengers MEMBER
    Ts need utility just as much as CTs do, they just use it in a different way, one notable scenario being the post plant.

    Also, increasing the cost of an AK will only affect an AK player (unless teams can only force up to AKs); anyone who buys an M4 is worse off and completely unaffected.
    Overall, i don't really see a problem; if CTs win they win either way.

    I'd pose a question: if the changes to the AK are so drastic for CTs in particular, why is it that in CS, CT guns are almost always more expensive than Ts, and they seem to get the balance right even with 15 rounds?

    Side note: how has no one figured out that you can buy 2 kits and drop one on each site.
  20. I personally think the economic changes will be fine. At the end of the day most of the post assumes the T's will get the bomb plant and need utility less than the ct's (which I don't think they do).

    With the proposed bunnying changes there will also be in my opinion less attacking advantage and therefore ct's need a slight money disadvantage. Also why is body armour or a kit recommended - sniper won't 1 shot body anymore and there won't be bunnying. All causing less body shots. And kits can be carried by each site anchor.

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